otaku_emmy said:
Can a person legitimately quote themselves?

I don't think we're doomed though. Our bodies are only a shell.
i agree. i mean, i'm all for the infinite possibilities, yet i don't think that means that we should do bad stuff to our bodies, or anyone elses. if we were ageless star-elves who could teleport across the cosmos at will then maybe blowing each other's limbs off wouldn't be such a big deal but it seems our earthly condition makes things frustratingly complicated. in reality being free of the body probably means that you will be less obsessed with creepy-ass sadistic tendencies and realize how to fulfill those "needs" if indeed they are in a much more pure way.
onisonfire said:
... if we were ageless star-elves...
But we aren't. That's the short and long of it.
I understand what you mean minabi and since childhood I have long held onto the concept that our conscience is on another plane of existence and we are simply viewing the idea of life in its physical form (the reason why I enjoyed Haruhi so much). I agree that none of the things we do or the things that happen to us throughout our lifetime really matters to our existence. But that doesn't mean we don't want to make the most out of our experience as humans. Suffering is not something that a normal human being wants. I understand that it's our own responsibility for believing that we are human and that we can feel pain. But we just want to experience what it is like to live. Humans are essentially pack animals so killing each other is not something we do. We just want to survive. Sure we'll kill other animals in order to survive and other animals will do the same but human minds were never meant to feel pleasure from the suffering of others. We have come a long way throughout history and our desires have changed from what they originally were based upon so many different factors. We've all gained individuality and that's just the way it is; there's nothing we can do to change that.

We are still just human beings and there is nothing within our power that will allow us to reject any pain and suffering that comes upon us. But because we are human, nobody is just going to sit there and accept it even if they do believe their existence expands far beyond humanity. However there isn't much we can do to control the things that people desire either because as you may have said minabi, we all have the freedom whatever the hell we want. Sometimes we just have to be realistic about this. We can't really say if a desire is right or wrong at this point since everyone is unique want different things but the best we can do is find solutions so that our desires don't conflict. Whether that means, I don't know, psychological rewiring of the brain or developing robotic substitutes. All of which are within human capabilities.

That turned out so much longer than I expected.
There's ways to channel those wishes (i try drawing those feelings) but it's not the same, and that breaks us. I wouldn't go out and rape a little girl cause i'm a lolicon, same goes to torture to death someone. The difference between someone like that and a psycho killer is the fact that we don't lose control over our mind and wishes. I would dissect or punch to death soemone untill every bone breakes just for the feeling of it, and even that i could physically, i chose not to. That also is one of the things that differentiates us from animals, freedom of choice.
if you aren't actually hurting anyone, or even acting like you are going to, then i don't have a problem with whatever weird crap you are into in your mind. but sometimes you just have to call it like you see it, cause if you're not careful you'll end up supporting a market for really terrible things to happen to people, or something.
onisonfire said:
.... supporting a market for really terrible things to happen to people, or something.
What? You mean like guns and explosives? A few fighter jets? A battalion of tanks? Bio-weapons?

Nothing so crass, I assure you. Some knives to help the cooking industry. Maybe with a blowtorch thrown into the bargain. And I am sure a good leather belt, a solid plank of wood or a steel pipe, plus some strong tapes will keep a person bound for as long as I need. If all else fail, I think a good nail and a bit of wood will do wonders to keep a person's flesh in-between.

I do not support war, nor do I buy "weapons"... At the most it'll be some cooking supplies, some DIY tools, and maybe some electrical/electronics stuff just for the hell of it. Oh, a few medicinal stuff. After all, life is precious and what I buy will support that.

And it will be a peace of a kind. People will stay quiet. Life will continue as it always has for most. All I have to do.... is pick my... partners carefully. Ones without friends or families, or at least a little out of touch with them. Ones who are.... troublemakers. Ones whom disappearance will not raise much ire of the people. And peace... will be good. Haha! The longer I make my partners last, the less the peace is.... disturbed. And that.... is grand. Life will be grand, as it should be. Isn't that wonderful?
It's a bit disturbing when you realize you think a little similarly to the "scariest" person on Konachan...
Freenight said:
What? You mean like guns and explosives? A few fighter jets? A battalion of tanks? Bio-weapons?

Nothing so crass, I assure you. Some knives to help the cooking industry. Maybe with a blowtorch thrown into the bargain. And I am sure a good leather belt, a solid plank of wood or a steel pipe, plus some strong tapes will keep a person bound for as long as I need. If all else fail, I think a good nail and a bit of wood will do wonders to keep a person's flesh in-between.

I do not support war, nor do I buy "weapons"... At the most it'll be some cooking supplies, some DIY tools, and maybe some electrical/electronics stuff just for the hell of it. Oh, a few medicinal stuff. After all, life is precious and what I buy will support that.
i was thinking more like online films, a demand creates a supply. basically your mindset enables such things to happen...classic chain reactions that begin in the mind...

And it will be a peace of a kind. People will stay quiet. Life will continue as it always has for most. All I have to do.... is pick my... partners carefully. Ones without friends or families, or at least a little out of touch with them. Ones who are.... troublemakers. Ones whom disappearance will not raise much ire of the people. And peace... will be good. Haha! The longer I make my partners last, the less the peace is.... disturbed. And that.... is grand. Life will be grand, as it should be. Isn't that wonderful?
ermegerd ur stho hardcore *rollseyes*

ok buffalo bill, let me clarify, my idea of a peaceful world is one which is actually awesome, not boring and repressed where lone wolves get taken advantage of by creeps such as yourself. although i doubt you've ever done anything like this...hope not anyhow.

it would be a world which is much closer to the one we see depicted in anime images, and much further from the wasteland in which undertakings such as you describe could actually be possible.
Trying to be as straight-forward as possible with my thoughts, I think a utopian world is one with a balance of calamity and peace. Everything must have a balance to be in harmony, and harmony is a balance in nature. Humans for sure have been damaging their fragile existence with their own means to the idea of a peaceful world. I don't mean to sound like I'm bending over and living a laissez faire life while the world rams one into me, but for us humans we need something to unite us together (ie. a common evil, be it aliens, Freenight, or the apocalypse) in order for us to find a connection between such diverseness. We tend to make life overly complicated with our misconception of our own intelligence.
Be it however as it may, I think a world that onisonfire is wishing for is definitely possible. In about another several hundred years or so when the human race is done wasting their only natural gift on finding ways to hate (as a general statement) one another.

As for humans, the natural balance, the universe relativity blah blah blah, we are the epiphany of evolution, albeit intelligence-wise only. Perhaps our conflicts are designed to destroy a good portion of our existence so that particular ways of thinking, like the black and white/liberal and conservative mindset, for example, become extinct. Either way, some sort of consensus will be met. I have faith in evolution.
Sorry, Biology major's gettin' to my head a bit.

Man, I feel like this deer crossing the philosophy forum here.
noRain_noRainbow said:
Freenight
You're banding me.... together.... with common evil.
*Freenight is not evil*

otaku_emmy said:
It's a bit disturbing when you realize you think a little similarly to the "scariest" person on Konachan...
And who might that be?

onisonfire said:
ok buffalo bill, let me clarify, my idea of a peaceful world is one which is actually awesome, not boring and repressed where lone wolves get taken advantage of by creeps such as yourself. although i doubt you've ever done anything like this...hope not anyhow.
It is... one of the banes of society that there will be lone wolves. Isolated individuals. Anyone that does not adhere to the pact of the pack... will be shunned. While wolves might do that for species survival, humans, being humans, do it mostly out of malice.

As for me having done what I want to do..... No. Pity really. I lack the means, and the resources to pull it off. Given the chance however, a small slip from someone else..... Should things fall in my favor.... *insert favorite laugh*
Human bags? You mean "meat bags." - HK-47
About that perfect world, that doesnt exist and it won't, theres a problem, as it always has, in my perfect world there would be pain, pressure and suffering, but not stress; cause that's something that moves me and makes me exited. A lot of people go for a romantic (philosophically) way where there's only happiness and no pain. I prefer my freedom over my happiness, even if that makes me sad. I would choose to do what i want instead of being happy (why do we want freedom if we are happy? - walden).
Holy fuck, Freenight, everything you write reads like an angsty 14-year-old's revenge fantasies. It would be hilarious if it wasn't so painfully embarrassing.
Freenight said:
And who might that be?
Me 'n you. But, like I said, I am not in to violence at all. Reading the list of things you needed to have your fun kind of reminded me of the way I think sometimes. I entertain little, semi-dark fantasies in my head at times. I've mentioned it before.
Cade said:
Holy fuck, Freenight, everything you write reads like an angsty 14-year-old's revenge fantasies. It would be hilarious if it wasn't so painfully embarrassing.
Thank you :D
Freenight said:
It is... one of the banes of society that there will be lone wolves. Isolated individuals. Anyone that does not adhere to the pact of the pack... will be shunned. While wolves might do that for species survival, humans, being humans, do it mostly out of malice.
i'm sure there's an evolutionary aspect for humans as well. diversity can't occur if people don't go off on their own.

in india though, a wandering individual is sometimes respected as a holy man, where as here its not like that as much.
Cade said:
This is truly the Kali Yuga...
Wikipedia said:
A discourse by Markandeya in the Mahabharata identifies some of the attributes of Kali Yuga. In relation to rulers, it lists:

-Rulers will become unreasonable: they will levy taxes unfairly.
-Rulers will no longer see it as their duty to promote spirituality, or to protect their subjects: they will become a danger to the world.
-People will start migrating, seeking countries where wheat and barley form the staple food source.
-"At the end of Kali-yuga, when there exist no topics on the subject of God, even at the residences of so-called saints and respectable gentlemen of the three higher varnas [guna or temperament] and when nothing is known of the techniques of sacrifice, even by word, at that time the Lord will appear as the supreme chastiser." (Srimad-Bhagavatam (2.7)

With regard to human relationships, Markandeya's discourse says:

-Avarice and wrath will be common. Humans will openly display animosity towards each other. Ignorance of dharma will occur.
-People will have thoughts of murder with no justification and will see nothing wrong in that.
-Lust will be viewed as socially acceptable and sexual intercourse will be seen as the central requirement of life.
-Sin will increase exponentially, whilst virtue will fade and cease to flourish.
-People will take vows and break them soon after.
-People will become addicted to intoxicating drinks and drugs.
-Gurus will no longer be respected and their students will attempt to injure them. Their teachings will be insulted, and followers of Kama will wrest control of the mind from all human beings.
-Brahmans [minabi note: basically teachers, priests, other leaders of learning] will not be learned or honored, Kshatriyas [minabi note: political leaders and military personnel] will not be brave, Vaishyas [minabi note: agriculturalists, bankers/moneychangers, traders/businessmen] will not be just in their dealings.
Seems like it, yup. *tosses three minabi points towards Cade*
Truth is knowledge according to human belief.
Fact is knowledge according to the universe itself.
Agos said:
Truth is knowledge according to human belief.
Fact is knowledge according to the universe itself.
Truth is subjective though. Oftentimes, there is no one truth.
otaku_emmy said:
Truth is subjective though. Oftentimes, there is no one truth.
however, that does not excuse one from speaking it...
Agos said:
Truth is knowledge according to human belief.
Fact is knowledge according to the universe itself.
Truth always has some (limited) defining context.

You can't easily separate the human element from human knowledge. Subjectivity & individuality are just part of the experience of reality, as we know it.

There's no perspective 'from the universe'... probably a bit of idealism. imo

A discourse by Markandeya in the Mahabharata identifies some of the attributes of Kali Yuga.
meep

"Man can only find paradise within the confines of his own mind, yet man is doomed to be a physical entity..."
Not morbid or emo or anything.

otaku_emmy said:
I don't think we're doomed though. Our bodies are only a shell.
meep, meep
sùzù said:
I think it's important to ask why so many cultures seem to feel that way, even if only intuitively. Is there any basis/reason for it? Is it just wishful thinking? How would you know? Also, a shell to what?
My body is me, but I am not my body.
otaku_emmy said:
My body is me, but I am not my body.
Ok. Doesn't answer what there is to a human besides its body though.
Think about a book. A book is more than its binding and its pages. It's even more than the sentences printed in ink on that paper.

A book is what it conveys or teaches. A book is thoughts and feelings.

So it is with people.

Each person has within them, to whatever extent, an infinite universe of possibility. Boundless ideas and scenes which, for most, can never be sufficiently expressed.

We're ever flowing rivers that, even after our passing, will still trickle little by little on through others who knew us.

There's simply more to us than our human bodies.
otaku_emmy said:
My body is me, but I am not my body.
sùzù said:
Ok. Doesn't answer what there is to a human besides its body though.
Reminds me of the central theme/debate of "The Swapper". The whole game was very philisophical in this regard whether there truly is such a thing as a soul, if we are truly more than just a brain. Highly recommend you both play if given the opportunity.
sùzù said:
Truth always has some (limited) defining context.

You can't easily separate the human element from human knowledge. Subjectivity & individuality are just part of the experience of reality, as we know it.

There's no perspective 'from the universe'... probably a bit of idealism. imo
Perspective of the universe is meant to mean objectivity, I think.
Think of Data vs Information. A database contains data, but the DB's response to a query would be information, because it has context.
Objective fact is mere data. Truths are facts that hold a deeper contextual meaning to the human mind.

sùzù said:
If anybody asked, I'd say religion is religion... and religion is not knowledge.
If I remember correctly, Descartes argued that absolutely certain knowledge directly depends on God (or a benevolent, omnipotent, all-knowing being). His arguments are very convincing.

sùzù said:
Then what *can* you take with you? Since we don't know that much about the hereafter, couldn't I turn the argument around and say the same thing about almost anything.
That question makes little sense, unless you're asking somefaith in particular.

sùzù said:
Just ideas. I think you should never underestimate the potential of your own mind or your own level of participation in your own reality. For that reason it's a good idea not to assume anything.
I think that any knowledge we have relies on a certain degree of trust/faith we put into something somewhere along the line.

otaku_emmy said:
snippety snip snip
TL;DR: this reminds me of this Russian guy, who made a video talking about philosophical things.
I certainly believe in a soul simply due to the fact that I as consciousness can observe every aspect of my body, even brain functioning! So clearly I am somehow more than just the body. I'm definitely a spirit or conscious being, an energy function, whatever you want to call it.

Now is this spirit emergent of the body or is the body a vessel for already existing spirits? I tend to think that a body is more of a receiver for a universal consciousness which is really the fundamental reality, and in carrying this essence much like a computer receives electricity, it creates an 'individual.' I think consciousness is prior because that explains not only souls and other spiritual phenomena, but offers no barrier to scientific and mechanical world-views...

Ultimately, at the absolute level, I think consciousness being the absolute reality transcends any concept or quality, so even as souls our individuality is still quite relative and temporally bound. Maybe more lasting though than say, a gust of wind or a wave in the ocean :)
onisonfire said:
Ultimately, at the absolute level, I think consciousness being the absolute reality transcends any concept or quality, so even as souls our individuality is still quite relative and temporally bound.
some interesting thoughts there...

according to the idea of definition by negation, "we" identify as "ourselves" because the self that, in philosophical terms, "experiences life" is unlike anything else we "experience". on a side note...
If we were to (justifiably, IMO) assume that it's impossible to imagine anything one hasn't experienced already (4D shapes, new colours/smells, etc...), we'd come to the conclusion that it's impossible for us to know "what it's like" not to have a consciousness/self, because it's an essential "component/medium" to our experiences. All "experiencing" is done by (or through) the self and therefore we cannot, in our lifetime, have any experience without it. side note 2
Interestingly enough, almost every philosopher or school of thought "assumes" the existence of the self. At least I can't, off the top of my head, think of anyone specific who denied it. A nice metaphor I read on this topic goes like this:
In an old-fashioned lamp, there's some wax burning. Small particles of wax rise in the heated air, and "gain individuality". Only being aware of their immediate surroundings and perceiving, among other things, other particles, they assume that they are defined by their shape. Not realising that they are, in fact, primarily, wax. They dread the moment they will lose that individual shape. They think that by losing their shape, the will be destroyed, not realising, that they will merely return to "the big wax" at the bottom.
It's tempting to think that the pieces of wax represent our bodies that return to the earth, but who's to say it isn't also the case for our mind/soul (that it returns to its source)?
Gregol said:
It's tempting to think that the pieces of wax represent our bodies that return to the earth, but who's to say it isn't also the case for our mind/soul (that it returns to its source)?
I tend to think this way. Yep it's like you said, there is nothing else in life that can compare to the self or consciousness. It's a pretty important thing lol. For this reason it's not at all unfounded to think that consciousness could be fundamental not only to our individual experience but to reality as a whole. It's basically like saying the universe is alive...

Even if it was the solely the product of evolution, then we can still see it as a sort of inevitability (i think that's fair enough). But it might be an even more elegant solution to say that consciousness is a bare necessity for all of being, all a human body does is allow it to operate in a more complex way.

Gregol said:
At least I can't, off the top of my head, think of anyone specific who denied it.
The Buddha. His whole doctrine is an explanation of 'no self.' It's pretty interesting imo. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatta

basically says that the self is all processes, habits, thoughts, there is no object that could actually or significantly be called a self.

I don't disagree with it and it's a very valuable doctrine but it isalmost like saying 'there is no wave' when experientially you might notice waves in an ocean. But then again Buddhism talks a lot about reincarnation so it becomes apparent that the 'no self' doctrine is an absolute truth but they still see a sort of 'soul' just as yet another phenomenon.
onisonfire said:
The Buddha. His whole doctrine is an explanation of 'no self.'
I read a bit into that article you linked to, and... wow... I'm positively amazed. O_O
From my understanding of it, it's not that Buddha explicitly denied the existence of a self by saying "there is no self". It's like he rejected the topic altogether, and explained how discussing it isn't "skilful". It's rejection on a sort of meta-level, which is much more profound than the orthodox approach.
There's my food for thought for a few days to come...